However,It is very necessary to understand that what "Freedom of speech" actually means.According to the dictionary of "Oxford University Press"- "Oxford guide to British and American culture", Freedom of speech is :"The right to express any opinions in public.This right became part of American law under the "First Amendment".If the opinions expressed are false or damage a person's reputation,however that person can take legal action under US law.In Britain people are free to express most opinions,but it is against the law to express some ideas,e.g ideas that aim to cause RACIAL hatred."
This shows that all the people who are supporting the event ,the one way or the other are not only trying to play with the religious feelings of the Muslims but are also breaking the rules of their own countries.We demand the most terrible punishments for the cartoonist Molly Norris and for the person who started the page over facebook.
Several protests and processions compelled the government of Pakistan to take immediate actions against the social networking site.An SMS campaign was at rise demanding boycott of the site, moreover the rallies were taken out in the different parts of the country.Alot of hatred and anger can be observed particularly among the youth.Though banning of face book in Pakistan is not the solution, but this will cause huge financial loss to face book authorities.
STATISTICS:
Face book earning: $ 11000000000
Face book users 4609,221,00
per users $2.39
pakistani usres 2359620
total revenue from pak $5,631,281,29
REFERENCE:
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5867394-facebook-blocked-in-pakistan
82 comments:
osmunness G! ur blog always is da source of latest updates 4 me. i just hope that fb bans the page and punish the authorities but it seems a far-fledged dream.
seems u workEd hard for making ds post n hv comeup with a perfect definition of freedom of speech describeD by the west!
@ReeBz,What a timely professional post.Keep it up.
I'm also very happy about it.
I made a cartoon that was taken seriously. I never started a facebook page. I joined "Against Everybody Draw Mohammed Day."
Molly Norris
http://www.mollynorris.com/
Why give those so immature as to start this little war the reinforcement and satisfaction of so much attention for people who started such an ugly event?
Remember people who are looking for a sense of power and importance in all the wrong places certainly are more to be prayed for and pitied than cursed. Somehow they may have been missing true experience of goodness and the oneness of all perhaps even through no choice or fault of their own?
So are we helping these who are so tremendously deprived of their own humanity by flinging back the kind of hatred they began?
I know there are times to do so...I have had to make the tough call many a time and even my kids say, "Mom, remember, you can't fight all the battles...you have to choose which ones."
Is there not another way than losing so much energy when it comes to fb? Do we have to play the game here that was begun by those without our desire for goodwill?
How might we not feed into such a battle that is leading to cursing and calling for the killing of others? Might there be a response of a higher level?
'Just asking questions at this point. Of course the anger here is so understandable...The ban may turn out to be the right thing to do.
And as usual, the work this blogger has done and the comments about qualifications re. freedom of speech are very well-spoken.
@Anonymous,though Molly Norris later backed out but it was initiated by her.The idea was hers.She is equally responsible as the everyone else taking part in the competition is.
she became extremely afraid with the Muslim's response which made her join "Against Everybody draw Muhammad Day",Otherwise MollY Norris is the real cause of this mayhem.She invited this anger by hurting the sentiments of Muslims herself.
Its superb news! i ask all of u to plz join "Pakfacebook" we want complete and forever ban of facebook!
If its about FB financial loss then its Ok but these protests and ban have made the news worldwide and a friend of mine who can access that page told me that more people are joining that website now.
The question is will they stop drawing now after getting this much publicity?
And there's a difference between banning and boycotting. Boycotting is by people's will, Banning could be forceful.
Anyway, there's so much to say.
One last thing, can you please provide the source of the statistics mentioned in the blog?
And a little off comment: You write beautifully.
Connie for all you said, i have only few lines in response to say.
These protests were necessary to show our hatred and to show that we condemn all such activities, and we shall not bear any insult of our Holy Prophet.
Christians can understand it well, and you too,as you belong to a Holy Religion. You have same level of respect for all the prophets and you can understand how it feels if some terror-loving elements try to provoke you by targeting Jesus Christ.
Same level of protests were shown back in 2006 by the christian community all over the globe when DAVINCI CODE book and movie appeared.
We have nothing else in our control to avenge those who are targeting our Prophet, or else we would have done that too!
Nida E Fatima.
Dear,Yes ofcourse more and more pagan will keep joining the page, but i call it a good step by Pakistan to ban face book as it was necessary to show protest and our hatred to all non0 Muslim forces.
But, why didnot your friend tell you that even more people are now joining the page "Against everybody draw Muhammad day"
some one has rightly said "Islam Zinda hota hey her Karbala k baad!"
==
Yes boycotting and banning are different terms, but it is a very known fact that all the Pakistanis and the Muslims around the world planned facebook boycott.It was by will and the protest at individual level.
But banning was necessary and it showed the protest at STATE level.Hence showing that our people and government are united in this cause.
==
I'm sorry i missed the reference for the statistics i found. I'm trying to find the source. If i manage I'll post it here.
===
Thanks for the compliments :)
According to Article 2-A of the Constitution," no practice against religion can be allowed in the country, the competition was illegal"
It is the answer of your question that why it was necessary to ban face book in Pakistan.Earlier when Danish newspapapers published cartoons, we protested, and taken out rallies and processions but we had nothing else to do, as they were published in their own country where Pakistan can not interfere,but now as it could be accessed in Pakistan it was best to ban the social networking site!
Hats off to lawyers!
Nida E Fatima
here is the reference for statistics:
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/5867394-facebook-blocked-in-pakistan
m also going to mention it in the post.
@Nida Fatima: Yes, there is a difference between boycotting and banning but that difference can be removed if we voluntarily accept the ban and support the government's decision :).
[i]why didnot your friend tell you that even more people are now joining the page "Against everybody draw Muhammad day"[/i]
This is what I have said in my first post.
[i]it is a very known fact that all the Pakistanis and the Muslims around the world planned facebook boycott.It was by will and the protest at individual level.[/i]
I know a huge proportion of people who were boycotting the boycott and I'm one of them.
Anyway, this publicity will stimulate more people to do blasphemy because attention is what they needed and they did get that.
To me, this banning and protest is all non-sense. The best way to shut the mouths of those people was to ignore them.
And you'll see how soon the coward Pakistani govt. will raise the ban.
Moreover, this stupid PTA has banned youtube, wikipedia also and on some ISPs even google. They are acting ridiculously stupid making our lives more miserable.. urghh..
Is it a credible source?
Connie's point was also valid and I do not think that it was about ignoring the 20 May campaign or even tolerating it. It was just to respond in such a manner that we ourselves do not contribute to the popularity of that campaign which we are trying to stop.
To share a personal note, when I wrote the first of my blog entries on this subject a few days ago, I also felt this dilemma: even by writing against it, am I giving dignity to something that is so beneath a civilized mind? Hence I started my post with cautious words addressing that dilemma.
Anyway, those deliberations are left behind now, since the issue has taken on hype of a different kind.
Nida E fatima
I can not say anyhting about the credibility of the source until i make a research myself.
I don't agree with you that we should ignore all the issue.Remember what Rasool Allah S.A.W said?
"To ignore and staying silent after noticing an evil in the society is the lowest level of FAITH".Would you like to be on the LOWEST level of faith when you have the opportunities to raise your faith level??
Allah has asked us to do JIHAD against all the evil forces. If "Ignoring" was the best solution then Allah would never order Muslim Ummah to fight against evil.
We have everything before us, we just need to recall our religious knowledge :)
====
I'm happy that pakistan has banned youtube and wikipedia as well.Holy prophet said " The one who does not love me more than his family, his friends and everything in this world cant be a true muslim",So what if we have to bear some little problems in order to show our love and respect for our Holy Prophet S.A.W?
PTA is not making your life miserable, just enjoy the ecstasy of having a miserable life for your Holy Prophet!
In my opinion it is nothing a big deal, you call it miserable but still this is not enough to fulfill the rights Holy Prophet have on us..!
28:55 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."
I'm not good at quoting hadees and ayats, but I found this one so I shared. :)
About my life being miserable and bearing some problems in order to show our respect to Rasool Allah S.A.W:
Ok ban everything in the name of love of Rasool Allah S.A.W., next they will ban google and we'll bear that saying this is for the Holy Prophet S.A.W.
Ban something that should be banned like that FB page, not every single website.
They have banned youtube. Were there anti-islamic videos only? No, there was alot more important there which we can't access now. Similar is the case with wikipedia.
And we can't question anyone's love and respect for Holy Prophet s.a.w. Everyone thinks differently and more than one person can be right at the same time.
-----
That FB page has been deleted by FB admin, Mubarak ho! And FB is now facing protest from the members of that page. Lets see what happens next..
Ok, the page is back
Violence, or the threat of violence is not an acceptable answer. Here in America we can say or write (or draw) anything we want to, even if it hurts someone's feelings or lends support to a viewpoint not popular to the viewer. If I went around threatening harm to everyone in this country who said something I found stupid or offensive I'd spend so much time hating and hurting that I would never know peace. I find it's better to simply ignore those words that I find offensive. They can't hurt me, they can't make me change my mind about something I believe, they are only words or images. I can turn away, or listen to something else, focus on a peaceful or productive task.
For instance, I find your view of pagans rather offensive, as I myself am a practicing pagan. I celebrate the changing of the seasons and the harvesting of my crops. How exactly does that make me a terrible evil person? Yes, I supported Draw Mohammed Day, but not because I am a pagan, my religion has nothing to say about other religions, I support it because I support my right to free speech. Not just my right to speech that's non-offensive, but the right to ALL speech, no matter it's content. Which is why I respect your right to your views about my chosen religion. I don't agree with them, I think they're wrong, but I think you have the right to voice your beliefs and I won't threaten you with violence. I don't think those rights extend to violence against opposing views.
You will never succeed in making America silent. Will you try to kill every American? For only then will you quiet our voice. If you don't like our views on free speech and separation of government and religion, then quit watching our cartoons, quit enjoying our social networking sites, and stop reading our newspapers and comics. Just go bury your head in your sand of choice and enjoy the quiet.
Myself, I'll take the noisy, offensive, wonderful sound of freedom, over silence any day.
Goddess bless.
Nida Fatima:Dont behave like an extremist. Google will not be banned as google has nothing to do with these sketches and cartoons. You tube is banned cause all the images were to be uploaded there plus some clips of the live event.
So what if you have to sacrifice few of your valuable material for few days?
Let this matter be settled down, and you will get your everything back.
===
Secondly, never believe on forward messages, the page is back, because it was never deleted. It is present at FB since the very first day!
===
I was not questioning anyone's love for prophet, everybody is entitled to his or her own views.
But I'm just a bit amazed of peoples hypocrisy or may be some sort of show-off!
Didnot you at facebook suggest others to completely delete their accounts from facebook forever?So what on earth is making you this much annoyed when you know that facebook will be back after 10 days?
Jennie:Violence, or the threat of violence is not an acceptable answer.
We didnot show any violence at all.If you are going to point out us, then what are your thoughts about ur ownself for breaking the laws of "Freedom of speech" do we the Pakistanis should tell you what US law says about freedom of speech!?
If you are still a human then there are some limits for everything even in US which you must not cross.But if you suspect that you have been transformed into an animal then carry on, I'm not supposed to talk to you.
And please don't be offended, its freedom of speech, who can know it better than you!! :)
====
For sure i didnot target you at all, every one is not the same. I have no problem that how you celebrate what. I have no problem that whom do you worship. You are free to practise your religion in your way. I will ahve problem with you ONLY when you will interfere in my issues and my religion. LOt has been already said here on freedom of speech and if you read the post clearly it tells you what the freedom of speech actually is!
Why do you think that it is your freedom to humiliate others?How would you feel if i make same nasty and nude sketches of yours?(though i know that you have nothing to do with modesty but if i draw such sketches only for the sake of offending you then you will not like it)How will you feel if i draw your face with a pig?NicE?Please don't get offended its freedom of speech!
Plus we know that we cant make you silent,Every civilization behaves so when it is going DOWN! eg Rome civilization,Mughals etc.
===
Yes if we have banned facebook, then it does mean that we can quit your social networking sites, which will bring you to your knees as it is going to throw you in a big financial loss Ms Jennie.
We in America and any who use FB who are from the West need now to take a much more listening role and to learn and keep on learning.
What you value, I value as well. And your religion and Prophet, who was already precious to me...has become ever more so because of who you each are and how you define and represent the same...
Personally, we are all so mixed up today...many cultures and nations having in a way made FB their own so it is in many ways beyond how it was begun...and in America we are so many varieties of Christian, Muslim, HIndu, Pagan, Socialist, Atheist, etc. etc. even among each category...same with Europe and we need to take heed of that us Westerners...Seems to me that time for Empire is over for the West at least and maybe for all of us...maybe we can at last find a way to be One without it?
Now, whatever is next, let it come of love and understanding...
YES, these difficult questions and issues and should not be dismissed lightly nor with mockery from any perspective if we don't want to lose our precious energy in each our large yet little lives over something without end of anger...
Thanx for your talent ReeBz at great research and your confidence in keeping conversations of the deepest sort going...and for including me, so many of you here...
Connie, dear friend and dear sis, honestly speaking i have never found any American with such a sense of maturation, understanding and with the skill of empathizing.
To me, most often Americans are arrogant, who have always an air of importance,They think high of themselves and their religion whether they belong to paganism, anthism or Christianity.
I have commented at many other blogs on this issue, many from America- I was hurt to see that at every blog, all the American blogger have made a drawing of Holy Prophet which is truly offensive.They demand me to draw the smae nasty images of theirs amd their prophets, but thet donot know that a Muslim can not do it ever. I wish i could reply them in their way but i just can not.
Kindly do me a favor and reply Jennie who posted here and also reply here http://tslrf.blogspot.com/
I don't want anymore conversation there, but i think your comment is a must for the both!
Once again thanks for such a wonderful understanding for a sister and a friend who is seven seas far from you!
Well, google can be banned. Have your ever seen orkut's anti-islamic communtites.
Hypocrite is the one who uses FB for the whole year and boycott it for a day or two thinking this would cause losses to FB, forgetting that he himself provides profile whole year.
//Secondly, never believe on forward messages, the page is back, because it was never deleted. It is present at FB since the very first day!//
It was not a fwd msg, the page did get deleted!
http://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=4494917&tid=5473215346581155566
//Didnot you at facebook suggest others to completely delete their accounts from facebook forever?//
ever heard of sarcasm? I think No!
Nida , there was a very serious discussion going on, i can't understand why you chose to comment sarcasticaly?
secondly, no dear if someone has existed with his profile at face book over years,and then he declares boycott for a day or two is not hypocrisy.
cause he used face book over they years though, but during that time period he finds nothing controversial. but when he finds controversial stuff he boycotts it. makes sense?eh?
hypocrisy is the thing when even after knowing all the controversial stuff you demand deletion of profiles,and then later on you back out saying that it was sarcasm.
Dear Sister and Dear Friend, ReeBz, I really felt touched upon reading this from you: "We have nothing else in our control to avenge those who are targeting our Prophet, or else we would have done that too!"
Yes, I know you would have done so and still will keep finding the right way. And I am praying for guidance for you and others there which I know will needs be somewhat different from here...
Actually you and Shafique Sahib are most likely doing a real act of mercy and love to all at large to have started that forum. May you be see much fruit for understanding through this long conversation...
Thanx for your friendship and empathy back.
Alright, I will pray to answer Jennie here and on her own blog...
My deep Prayers, Lov and Respect for you, dear one!
Jennie, since I'm also an American, I want to address your response:
I loved the way you started out: "Violence, or the threat of violence is not an acceptable answer."
With the rest of what you said, I have some questions: First, there is not the same freedom, even and especially in our life today in America for freedom. Not only are there ethics and etiquette but there have always been the qualifications written into and also understood in the whole "freedom of speech" dynamic over the years.
And today, what we say or or our friends say whether of Muslim or simply of "foreign birth or parentage"
Mr. Eric Prince...where he lists us with enemies...
You may not see this other side of things even in America yet trust me when I say, I have for years now...
Because I don't know you, I may be assuming yet I"m wondering if your own anger here may come out of some fear of ALL muslims or ALL Pakistanis? If so you don't need answer just know like all of us that we must continually seek to undo our stereotypes and prejudices even if silently within each our own soul...
Since I do know ReeBz, I feel that you may be sizing her and her intentions up a bit amiss by saying some of what you've said to her, probably without ill intentions -IE Such as a bit of sarcasm toward the end of your comment and speaking as if you are one with all Americans? Surely you too have experienced prejudice from other Americans and other religious sounding ones and can empathize with how that may feel when others also are attacked or misunderstood?
And silence on our part, us Americans of any persuasion has it's place in-between any helpful conversation we may want to have...
I know you respect the patterns of creation and we all know that nature teaches silence as the art of listening...to those who need to hear this.
Perhaps that is our part now, in America, for the most part? Even when we don't want to believe we've ever been or still are any part of the problem...we may need to take on the role of empathy sometimes and solidarity with those abused and other times to try to be the best bridge we might be with the offenders...where that role is given to us to do.
So I need to do the same and to back out before I talk too much! Which I have been known to do :) All the best Jennie :) If you want to talk further with me apart from this blog, write me at oneheartforpeace@gmail.com
After reading al comments and blog post ..
i m here just to say that ..
initially i m wid boycotting but after al tht happenings i agree with nida that now to prove d real love we shud del our accounts from facebook .. and in future i dont wanna b d part of such social site for sure .. cause ban and boycot just d 1st step .. but v r stil d part of dat site..
cox think tht in future how much time u wil ban or boycott FB? so y not to leave it now?
@Jennie,I really respect your religious views and I really admire your pride over your faith.But as we,muslims can't really understand paganism then how can you really understand our feelings.
We Muslims are unearthly attached with Hazrat Muhammad pbuh and we just can't ignore any thing offensive about him.Unlike you who can ignore.
It's a very strong feeling and you won't understand it if u aren't a Muslim.
Secondly,you said that you celebrate the harvest of crops and how does that make you a terrible person.No it doesnnot make you a terrible/evil person.But please see the irony,if one retard acts foolishly in Times square why is the whole Pakistan blamed..?
In the same why some of your countrymen have been long involved in terrorism in Muslim nations.I got pictures of your soldiers raping my Muslim sisters,killing my brothers just because of a 9/11 attack which the US was never able to prove that it was planned by Usama.
Thirdly,You talk about freedom of speech.Okay let's say for once I agree that you gave the right to do anything you like,but don't you agree this freedom of speech should have any restrictions..?
If your nation believes in freedom of speech then why ban on hijab..?
Then why ban building of Minarets in Switzerland.?
I call it double-faced terrorism and racist mentality of your nation.
My religion Islam is a religion of peace,not only in words and books but also in practical.Did you ever see a games like,"Christian/Pagan massacre"..?No..But a citizen of your so called civilized nation made a"Muslim massacre"game.
So I hope you got that Muslims aren't doing something unusual.Followers of other religion protest for their religion.Isn't freedom of speech used there..?
Christians sought ban on Da Vinci Code movie and Hindus protested against the exhibition of paintings by M F Husain disrespecting Hindu goddesses.
So I don't really think "Freedom of speech" is equal for all.My perspective is that if you support Freedom of speech then it should be equal for all,but if isn't then the restricted Freedom should go to hell.
In the end,You said,we'll have to kill Americans,that a hurting line,4000 people of my nation,including army men,women,children have died in order to fight against terrorism that threatens your nation not mine.So we give our lives to protect and what we get in return..?
Tell you what this isn't creating a nice image of you people here.
I'll wait for more comments from you.And I hope you'll justify your perspective to me.
http://youngpakistan1.blogspot.com/2010/05/wests-sheer-standards-about-freedom-of.html
mad girl,
you're mistaken.
nida is most probably annoyed with the banned face book, check again she says that the remarks she left at face book about deleting profiles was a sarcasm.means she dint mean so in real :S?
i'm ready to del my profile since da day i found about cartoons.
i just want to get my data and photos back from face book and then i'll say complete bye to face book.
CATGIRL
i was reading ur comment,then suddenly it got lost somewhere,somehow.
give me da link again.
mad girl,
you're mistaken.
nida is most probably annoyed with the banned face book, check again she says that the remarks she left at face book about deleting profiles was a sarcasm.means she dint mean so in real :S?
i'm ready to del my profile since da day i found about cartoons.
i just want to get my data and photos back from face book and then i'll say complete bye to face book.
CATGIRL
i was reading ur comment,then suddenly it got lost somewhere,somehow.
give me da link again.
Per the letter posted on http://tslrf.blogspot.com/2010/05/re-everybody-draw-muhammad-day.html
"...no one will mind if we draw same dirty, offensive images of yours."
You, sir, are correct. Nothing you write, draw or say will harm me in any way. And I will defend your right to write, draw and say them with my life. (At least if you are in the United States at the time.)
Side note, there is no Muslim race. Disagreeing with Islam is not racism. If any disagreement disturbs you, you have the right to not listen.
The corollary to freedom of speech is the freedom to be entirely indifferent, or not listen to, other people's speech.
hmm...Nice post ReeBz..and what a series of comments...
Took me hour to complete...
Anyways..I just wanted to know that did you search about what are the reactions or restrictions on FB by other Muslim Country???
I didn't find anything in newspaper about it.
While for Pakistan and being the true believer of our Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) I strongly condemn such childish acts.
Allah has promised our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on safety of his (pbuh) status and dignity.
People will target our religion and faith again even after this FB issue would be over...
Its time to think or plan proactively to get these issues tackled down before even they arise.
Pakistan is a poor country..true...but we haven't sold our pride and dignity yet...we are sometimes little irretional but not mistaken.
So...this is the first time I am happy about my government...decision...hmmm...
Thinking Thanks for coming.I have been missing your comments for many days on my blog posts..
Yeah i'm happy too first time with my government.
FB is banned in Syria,Iran,U.A.E,Even China banned it on some reasons and I heard that Saudia has also banned face book.!
Cool lots of financial loss!
To the Anonymous from Sweden.
Your comment included bad language, due to which i had to reject your comment. Better show it, if you are cultured!
But here my reply goes to you.
"You people have always a big problem with our beloved and respected Holy Prophet marrying a 9 year old girl.
then what will you say about it?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2233878.ece
A 13 year old DAD, is ONLY the very proud product of the "WESTERN CULTURE".
What does your religion say about it?Your school girl are giving birth in schools. PiTy!!
Save your children from yourselves, they are going towards a total destruction.Uncultured and uncivilized. No sense of how to pass a life like a human!!
I'm pretty surprised though i shouldnot be,all these non- Muslims are so delicate that they get offended when received threats from the Muslims after playing with the emotions of Muslims.
If you are so, then it was really shocking to see that few of you are threatening me that i can lose one of arm if i ever try to slap you in the name of freedom of speech?HuH!! every rights are only fort he WEST?
Allah knows better who is going to lose who!
====
Some of you found the pic with placard "Freedom of speech is western terrorism", the product of Muslim's extremism, and demanded the removal of my blog! awww!! dears, it doesn't contain any sort of abuse or bad language at all, then what is bothering you this mucH?
I too have freedom of speech!freedom to share my opinion, and it is not going to harm you in anyway!
Ok, even if I had commented sarcastically I've now provided you with a reason to ban google.
About deleting FB profile: Lets not comment over it. We'll see what happens once facebook is unbanned.
And now this discussion is going nowhere I guess.
and FB has been boycotted once before, I remember. All those people who boycotted should had their profiles deleted at that time, but they didn't and they are up with their boycott again.
About me being annoyed with FB being banned. Yes. I'm annoyed because High Court Judge is no one to decide which websites we should visit and which we should not. When they can trust people on electing the Govt. of Pakistan, why they cannot trust their people with this.
An educated, literate Pakistani Muslim understands that he should not visit or publicize that controversial page.
And deleting a profile: Yes I'd delete my profile rather than boycotting FB for a day.
I'm not a hypocrite or an extremist, refrain from personal comments. You never know what the other person's trying to say.
Nida Fatima:
whats the reason to ban google miss?
This discussion going nowhere for you probably, but for others it does :)
Anti-Islamic communties I said.
Yeah for me of course, I'm not reading others' replies.
Nida Fatima:
you are sort of double minded yourself. you dont know what do you want. At one time you say that you will delete your facebook profile, and at the same time you are annoyed with the ban on facebook.
High Court judge is the final authority to make the decisions like this.and everyone should respect it. A judge is a Judge.you must know it! every case of the country can be brought into his court!
No one ofcourse targeted you,learn to develop a better understanding.It was a general comment over peoples hypocrisy i dint mention your name.If you feel yourself that you are falling into this category,not my fault then.
If i can never know that what other person is trying to say, then he should develop better communication skills. Cause over internet when you cannot see others, you should have a full command over words.
Sarcasm looks good, and adds crisp but only WHEN where it suits!
Plus i don't know when did FB get block earlier. I joined Fb in early 2009!
Did you that time too suggested for the deletion of profiles permanently? and then you might have realized later on that it was sarcasm and you did not mean so?
Sorry no personal attack, i was really confused, so you may clear the confusions if you feel like so.
And you skipped "extremist".
I AM AGAINST THE BAN BECAUSE ITS JUST LIKE DICTATING US, ITS NOT LIKE THE BOYCOTT. MOREOVER, BANNING FB AND DELETING A PROFILE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.
And about developing communication skills, I think I wrote everything clearly. To understand the words, there should be a person with good understanding.
Ok, now we're discussing everything but the topic so end this!
I understand what are you saying and did say once that more than one person can be right at the same time. And I respect your point of view.
Enjoyed discussion after a long time, thank you!
No hard feelings, Allah Hafiz! :)
No, I didn't at that time. May be I should had done so.
You don't need to write "sorry no personal attack" if you're not doing so.
Nida Fatima.
now i have understood your point of view clearly. you are against the ban and against Boycott, as you said somewhere that you would prefer deletion of profiles permanently.
Then why didnot you delete your profile earlier when face book suffered from a ban?
//All those people who boycotted should had their profiles deleted at that time, but they didn't and they are up with their boycott again.//
Its like suggesting others again for the good, but you never work on it yourself ;)
There is nothing wrong if you are being dictated by the courts of the country.It is the freedom of Courts, and after Allah the decision of courts are must to follow.
//I AM AGAINST THE BAN BECAUSE ITS JUST LIKE DICTATING US, ITS NOT LIKE THE BOYCOTT//
yes, cause BAN stops everyone to use FB, whether on force, but Boycott is like a self-control, and those who are against FB BAN can still enjoy their filthy services when rest of the country is on ban,right?
Everyone has own opinion and i'm not saying that why are you against BAn on FB. i was just saying that your own statements are controversial and contradictory.
//And about developing communication skills, I think I wrote everything clearly. To understand the words, there should be a person with good understanding.//
I understood everything, and replied you accordingly, it was you who objected that you never knew what the other person is saying,dude!
//You don't need to write "sorry no personal attack" if you're not doing so.//
It was sort of a disclaimer, to clear that it is not a personal attack and you Should not consider it one, as you did it earlier. :)
I too enjoyed the debate!
Take care.
Regards,
ReeBz
@Nida,won't disagree with your views,but I think this isn't a suitable place to involve in a argument with your own countrymen.There's a argument going on between some western people and us here.So do you think it's quite sensible to show our disagreements here..?If you got a different perspective than Areeba than you should have ignored because everyone can't think the same way.
@Micheal,Islam isn't a race..Okay.
And Freedom of speech is your birth right.
I agree on that too.
But is that right equal for all...?
Why is Hijab baned.?
Isn't that a right for everyone to do whatever he/she likes.?
And I don't suppose if I as a muslim,stand in front of the white house and start shouting abuses at Obama,and I won't be arrested.So where's my right of freedom..?
Isn't this freedom of speech restricted for non-Muslims.?
I don't want the freedom of speech to be finished but I want freedom of speech for everyone in United states or the whole world.
Okay,if offending Muslims is not been racist but it can be called blind hatred..!
Freedom of speech never say speaking against Islam is the only freedom.Why especially target Muslims.?
For once,you target Muslims,but then why do you get surprised when you get an attack back..?
As A side note,I know all the people in US aren't the same.USA isn't a single country.It's a union of more than 50 states,so one can find about 50 different types of people in USA.
PS..@ReeBz,now as you don't have access to Facebook,Can I have an e-mail address,Just in case I need some help..?
Send me on Hamza_idiot@hotmail.com
gud job reebz......... i realy like your blog...... u give the new driection of thnking..... specailly i like the reasoning, american and britsh law
Hamza, i sent you an email. check your inbox.
Zoni:Thanks for coming and appreciation. it matters alot to me :)
Phew! that was quite some reading!
Well i'd again say that West has taken another step ahead in their Split Personality Culture.
that sum's up everything perfectly.
Firstly, you guys INSULT the term "Freedom of Speech"
Secondly, when you get responded, the meaning of the very term somehow evaporates for you.
Thirdly, you people excel yourself beyond the very last level of cheapness and start attacking the author's. wow! you need to adopt some serious attitude change.
SUGGESTIONS:
#1 Educate yourself PROPERLY about the nature of things before you go messing around them.
#2 Learn to face facts with Sound Logical Reasoning instead of following Emotional Streams which i must say are often the result of lack of proper knowldge and mislead, misunderstood, wrongly perceived statements.
#3 Dont stuff your head's with things you dont understand
#4 Go out and enjoy life. believe me its Beautifull!
LIVE AND LET LIVE!!
PS: Please learn to respect Humanity and its Values.
God created man, superior to all his creations.
its high time when you maintain the dignity of it.
Emoux.
@ Anonuymous, Thanks for the comments.I agree with all what you said.
seriously I'm in live with your comment full of intellect =D
As a non-Muslim who recently stumbled across your blog if you do not mind I would like to present some observations.
To many non-Muslims it appears as if your religion and lifestyle require that others live within the constraints of your religion. One example is if my wife and daughters were within a predominately Muslim community how would the fact they choose not to dress as conservatively be taken? Almost as long as the internet has been in existence people have been making fun of other religions yet most Muslims usually stand by and say nothing. Then they talk about how offended they are that people make offensive drawings of Muhammad.
With the utmost of respect may I indicate that many Muslims that I have had the opportunity to meet enjoy many of the freedoms that America provides until those freedoms provide deep offense to them. In your own country do you think the treatment of Hindus and Christians starting primarily in the 70s and continuing through today is acceptable? Your own country denies the ability for non-Muslims to become president in their constitution. Can you not agree that to an outsider it would seem that countries that become Muslim usually take the path of become more restricted and declaring Sharia law and usually not in the more liberal sense of Shari.
Based on my reading of the Holy Qur'an this divide cannot ever be bridged because people who truly live by it cannot provide a place for love of those they do not agree with.
SumDumGuy:
I will not go into the minor details of your comment cause I'm really sick of replying everyone individually now.
Anyway, first of all thanks for commenting at my blog, by keeping racism, and hatred at a side.You talked about your observations,(and they may be anything)only, instead of flaring up another debate.I appreciate it.
I would like to ask only one question which is the answer of your question:)
So what if Pakistan doesnot allow any non-Muslim to lead the country?Has there any Muslim leader passed in the history of U.S ever?
Mr.Obama's full name was "Mubarak Hussain Obama", but he felt sort of danger with his muslim name and now we all know him as BARAK OBAMA. Seems he is sick of his real identity "Mubarak Hussain".
What will you call it then?
@ReeBz, this would be a wonderful dialog to have however I understand your frustration and not wanting to comment on details anymore. To prevent this dialog from reducing your energy further I will refrain from continuing this by not answering your follow-up questions. If you wish to dialog further in the future please let me know because I think these types of honest yet respectful discussions are how we learn and grow.
Good day to you.
@ScumDogGuy
what kind of treatmeant with Christians and Hindus are you talking about?
the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has always given the Minorities their due rights since its birth! we've never denied them fair justice!
Minorities in this country have never lived in the fear of random, baseless crack downs against them nor are they treated like sea slugs in General Public. they are admitted in all spheres of life and are always treated with a due respect!
They are not looked down upon unlike at places in West nor are attacked Physically, Socially or Mentally.
So far i've seen man they are fully and independently practicing their own believes and customs and unlike you people, we dont go on harassing them or misinterpret their values.
And by the way as far as the question of not letting non-muslims contest for President or a Prime Minister is concerned than let me ask you one thing.
on which base are you criticizing this? i totally agree with the author, we've never seen any MUSLIM President in any of the CHRISTAIN Country ever. we can also portray that in a wrong manner you know but we dont drop ourselves to such a low level.
You guys SERIOUSLY need to change your behaviour towards Perception and Perspective of things and as Chinese say you people have to realize the fact that there are more importanmt things in life to see other than an increase in the GNP which doesnt necessarily explains everything as you think.
PeaceOut.
More and more I'm really agreeing with your approach, ReeBz, for the most part - if not all the way. And by the way, you are quite a gifted host here of dialogue.
I am here briefly to URGE to fight against Isolation. That is the intention, I'm sure, of some of these shenanigans to begin with.
Although I don't do twitter, plz send me Jennie's email or site if you have so that I might write to her. Did she at least get the other letter?
Anyone who'd like to help in the composing of an OPEN letter to Facebook and the US officials which is to be sent to MANY sites and posted on my own, plz let me know your suggestions and whether or not you want your name first is fine on such a letter?
Send to: Connie L. Nash oneheartforpeace@gmail.com
I'll respond to a couple now, others may have to wait until Monday.
ReeBz -- We didnot show any violence at all.
Maybe not you in particular, but there were certainly threats of violence made towards the SouthPark cartoonists. Threats from Muslims, advocating violence.
ReeBz-- what are your thoughts about ur ownself for breaking the laws of "Freedom of speech"
Freedom of Speech isn't a law, it's a right in America, guaranteed by the constitution. There are only a few restrictions to that right, as decided by the supreme court, mainly I don't have the right to lie about people and I don't have the right to speak of overthrowing the government. Other than those two things, anything goes. Drawing an offensive picture is NOT "breaking the laws of Free Speech."
ReeBz -- then there are some limits for everything even in US which you must not cross.
Limits yes, but pictures of Mohammed are not among the limits. Only in Islam is that limited.
ReeBz-- And please don't be offended, its freedom of speech,
I'm not offended, we're just talking and words don't hurt me.
ReeBz-- I have no problem that how you celebrate what. I have no problem that whom do you worship. You are free to practise your religion in your way. I will ahve problem with you ONLY when you will interfere in my issues and my religion.
I feel the EXACT same way. I have NO problem with how you worship and what you practice, but you CANNOT tell me not to do something that's forbidden in your religion. I don't follow your religion, and my government doesn't follow your religion. Therefore, the restraints of your religion are NOT my restraints. I have a problem with you ONLY when you interfere in my issues.
Reebz -- if you read the post clearly it tells you what the freedom of speech actually is!
Yea, I read what YOU think it is, but I don't agree with your interpretation. And, to be fair, as with all things in America, it's constantly being debated, but for right now, I DO in fact have the right to offend you.
Reebz - Why do you think that it is your freedom to humiliate others?
I think that because it's true, it is my right to humiliate and offend others. Others have the right to not listen to me, to walk away and listen to something that doesn't offend them, but I have the right to say/draw/write WHATEVER I want. That's the way it works in America, you have to take the good with the bad. I will agree that it is the BAD side of freedom of speech, there are definitely people I don't want to listen to because they offend me, but that's the way it works.
END PART 1 (only accepts 4000 character or less, see part 2 for end of reply to ReeBz)
PART 2 (end of reply to ReeBz)
Reebz - How would you feel if i make same nasty and nude sketches of yours?(though i know that you have nothing to do with modesty but if i draw such sketches only for the sake of offending you then you will not like it)How will you feel if i draw your face with a pig?
:-D Nothing to do with modesty, yes, that's true. I'm modest when I have to be, when I'm at work or at my parents house, but I would happily walk around naked most of the time. In fact, one of my part time jobs is to sit for art students without my clothing so they can practice drawing the human form. So, there already exist nude sketches of me, and some of them are really bad, and do make me look like pig face... :-D :-D but I digress. Yes, to answer your question, I would be hurt if you drew mean pictures of me. But I would respect your right to do it.
ReeBz - Every civilization behaves so when it is going DOWN!
Going down, that's interesting, I too think America is on it's last leg. I think we've spent too much and a lot of that spending has been done to protect Muslim citizens from extremists and dictators. That is a whole different argument though, so I'll stick to the topic at hand.
ReeBz-- then it does mean that we can quit your social networking sites, which will bring you to your knees as it is going to throw you in a big financial loss Ms Jennie.
Hmmm, throw me in a big financial loss? No, not really. I have no connections to that site financially. As a nation, it's a pretty small company that runs that site, probably less than 50 people total employed by it, so not a huge financial loss really.
I think if free speech really offends you so much, maybe you shouldn't participate in a site that's based in America. :-) Maybe this is a great opportunity to start a Muslim only social networking site. Then you can ban pictures of Mohammed all you like.
Goddess Bless
-Jennie
Connie -- I have some questions: First, there is not the same freedom, even and especially in our life today in America for freedom. Not only are there ethics and etiquette but there have always been the qualifications written into and also understood in the whole "freedom of speech" dynamic over the years.
Yes there are qualifications, as decided by the supreme court, I don't have the right to lie about people and I don't have the right to speak of overthrowing the government. Other than those two things, anything goes. Now, if you want to talk ethics and etiquette, that's a whole different argument. Etiquette, I'll agree with you there, drawing pictures that hurt others is not a polite thing to do. Politeness is NOT a law though. Rude pictures should NOT be censored as Comedy Central did with the South Park episode. Rude pictures are also not grounds for threats of violence, no matter what they portray.
Connie --And today, what we say or or our friends say whether of Muslim or simply of "foreign birth or parentage" Mr. Eric Prince...where he lists us with enemies...
You lost me here, I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. I don't list Muslims as enemies. Perhaps extremists Muslims I might list as enemies, but even then, I try to keep an open mind.
Connie -- Because I don't know you, I may be assuming yet I"m wondering if your own anger here may come out of some fear of ALL muslims or ALL Pakistanis? If so you don't need answer just know like all of us that we must continually seek to undo our stereotypes and prejudices even if silently within each our own soul...
I'm upset that the episode was censored, and upset that violence was threatened against those who drew the comics. I don't fear Muslims or Pakistanis. I lived for a summer in India and I have Muslim friends, I've even attended a call to prayer at a Mosque a couple of times. I agree stereotypes need to be undone and brought to light. Hatred and fear of Muslims is unfortunately widespread throughout the globe. Extremists worsen this fear and it spills over onto moderate and peace loving Muslims. I have conversations with friends and family about that fear and try to help distinguish between extreme and peaceful Muslims.
END PART 1 (See part 2 for end of reply to Connie)
Part 2 (End of reply to Connie)
Connie --Since I do know ReeBz, I feel that you may be sizing her and her intentions up a bit amiss by saying some of what you've said to her, probably without ill intentions -IE Such as a bit of sarcasm toward the end of your comment and speaking as if you are one with all Americans? Surely you too have experienced prejudice from other Americans and other religious sounding ones and can empathize with how that may feel when others also are attacked or misunderstood?
You're right of course, Paganism as I practice it is not common in America and often people do misunderstand. I do understand how it feels to have your religion attacked or made fun of, but that's the downside to free speech. I know the person has a RIGHT to say and feel those things. I can try to change their mind, through conversation and debate, but I don't have the right to threaten them with violence or the right to demand they censor themselves to make me feel better. I have the right to walk away and the right to ignore them.
I don't usually agree with all Americans, as a group we usually can't all agree on anything. :-D But one of the few things we are in agreement on is our right to free speech. You've already pointed out, quite rightly, the downside to free speech, it can offend. There are good sides though. I can speak on any subject without fear of persecution or reprisal. I can practice any religion I can dream up, without consequence. I can question the beliefs of others and question even the laws that govern this country, and none can say no. That is powerful stuff. In my mind it's worth the occasional offense.
Connie - And silence on our part, us Americans of any persuasion has it's place in-between any helpful conversation we may want to have... I know you respect the patterns of creation and we all know that nature teaches silence as the art of listening...
Silence as an art of listening, I 100% agree with you. Silence in the face of violence (or the threat of violence) I believe to just be cowardly. Freedom is not free, a phrase often said here in American. To keep silent when groups try to force that silence through fear would mean losing those freedoms. If we allow Muslims to restrict what we draw, where will it end? Will we stop eating pork because Muslim find it unseemly or stop eating cows because Hindu's find it blasphemous or allow only men to hold positions of power because that's how the Roman Catholics run things? No, I'm sorry, but no. All are equal here, and all are equally offended and equally ignored. We are a SECULAR state. We have HUMAN rights, not tied to any faith or creed. (although heavily influenced by the founding Christianity, I'll grant you)
All the best to you Connie. Thanks for talking!
Goddess Bless
-Jennie
Part 1 (reply to Muhammed)
Muhammed Hamza --But as we,muslims can't really understand paganism then how can you really understand our feelings.
We Muslims are unearthly attached with Hazrat Muhammad pbuh and we just can't ignore any thing offensive about him.Unlike you who can ignore. It's a very strong feeling and you won't understand it if u aren't a Muslim.
So, you're saying that just because your feelings are strong, they are more important than American freedoms? No, sorry, I do not agree. Hindus feel strongly that cows are sacred, yet Americans continue to eat beef. Baptists feel strongly that one shouldn't drink on Sundays, but Americans continue to consume alcohol on Sunday. Our nation is secular, no religious tenants dictate how we behave or what we are allowed to say/draw/write. We offend all equally, so that all are equally free to practice their beliefs. You can't have one without the other, and we love our freedom too much to relinquish it just because it offends someone.
Muhammed -- Secondly,you said that you celebrate the harvest of crops and how does that make you a terrible person.No it doesnnot make you a terrible/evil person.But please see the irony,if one retard acts foolishly in Times square why is the whole Pakistan blamed..?
I'm not following your logic here, how does my religion relate to the blaming of Pakistan for one act of terror? I agree, we shouldn't place blame on one particular country, I heard that that one "retard" was trained in Pakistan, at least that's what some intel points to. I think there are Americans who wish Pakistan would be less tolerant of those training camps and work harder to erase the extremist groups that terrorize your country and my country. I certainly don't BLAME Pakistan for this individual's actions, but I think it would be nice if Pakistan didn't have those training camps.
Muhammed-- In the same why some of your countrymen have been long involved in terrorism in Muslim nations.I got pictures of your soldiers raping my Muslim sisters,killing my brothers just because of a 9/11 attack which the US was never able to prove that it was planned by Usama.
Yea, our military involvement in the Middle East has not been popular here in America, I completely agree with you, Iraq and Osama had NOTHING to do with 9-11 and our involvemen there has more to do with the oil I think. As for pictures of rape by American soldiers, first off, don't believe everything you see on the internet, it's very easy to change pictures to show something untrue. I think such things might have happened, I think those soldiers were thrown in jail, as such crimes are not acceptable to any human being. I wish I could tell you America won't invade any more Islamic countries, but common people like myself have very little control over our military sadly. I protested the decision to invade Iraq, I wrote letters and talked to anyone who would listen, but there were powerful people involved and they don't care what Americans or Muslims think, they just want their money however they can get it.
Muhammed -- Thirdly,You talk about freedom of speech.Okay let's say for once I agree that you gave the right to do anything you like,but don't you agree this freedom of speech should have any restrictions..?
I really don't think there should be restrictions on it. All are free to say what they want, and all are free to ignore that which offends.
END PART 1 (see PART 2 for end of reply to Muhammed)
PART 2(reply to Muhammed)
Muhammed -- If your nation believes in freedom of speech then why ban on hijab..?
America doesn't have any bans on hijab. I believe you are thinking of France. Or Turkey, Tunisia, and Tajikistan who are Muslim-majority countries where the law prohibits the wearing of hijab in government buildings, schools, and universities. We have no such restrictions here in the US. There is a discussion taking place right now about whether freedom of speech extends to what a person wants to wear, I think there's some sort of court case making it's way through the system, but it'll be years before it gets to the Supreme Court and a decision is made. It is an interesting debate though.
Muhammed - Then why ban building of Minarets in Switzerland.?
As you say, Switzerland, so I don't know if I can give you a reason for that one. I didn't like that decision, like you, I think it's hypocritical. But, I didn't get a say in that one. :-D
Muhammed - My religion Islam is a religion of peace,not only in words and books but also in practical.Did you ever see a games like, "Christian/Pagan massacre"..?No..But a citizen of your so called civilized nation made a"Muslim massacre"game.
I actually have seen a game reported to be from a Muslim country called, "Kill the infidels" or something like that. But I can't remember the exact details. I have never seen the game you mentioned, "Muslim massacre." That sounds terrible. I would never play such a thing or allow my child to play such a thing. But, if an American made it, that person does have the right to make it, and I have the right to not play it or support it in any way.
Muhammed - So I hope you got that Muslims aren't doing something unusual.Followers of other religion protest for their religion.Isn't freedom of speech used there..? Christians sought ban on Da Vinci Code movie and Hindus protested against the exhibition of paintings by M F Husain disrespecting Hindu goddesses.
:-) Da Vinci Code was a good time, it was nice to see the Christians get all mad about it. But, they were not successful in their attempt to get it banned, because as I keep saying, all are equally offended and all are equally ignored. I didn't hear about the one with the Hindus, were they successful at getting the exhibition removed? Even if they were successful in getting a private company to remove an exhibition, they don't have the right to tell an American artist what he/she can or cannot paint/write/draw. (if Husain is an American artist, I'm not familiar with this case)
Muhammed - So I don't really think "Freedom of speech" is equal for all.My perspective is that if you support Freedom of speech then it should be equal for all,but if isn't then the restricted Freedom should go to hell.
I 100% agree, and that's why I'm so angry about the censorship of the South Park cartoon. I support freedom of speech for all, whether they offend me, christians, muslims or athiests. Freedom should be equal, and not dictated by 'strong feelings' as you said earlier, or dictated by threats of violence as other Muslims resorted to.
END PART 2 (see part 3 for end of reply to Muhammed)
PART 3 (The last one I promise)(reply to Muhammed)
Muhammed - In the end,You said,we'll have to kill Americans,that a hurting line,4000 people of my nation,including army men,women,children have died in order to fight against terrorism that threatens your nation not mine.So we give our lives to protect and what we get in return..?
I mourn every time someone dies fighting for freedom, be they Muslim or not, American or Pakistani or Iraqi. What are you getting in return? I am assuming you are Pakistani? My hope is you'll get protection from extremists who wish you harm, or from dictators with dangerous weapons. I don't run our military though, I'm not sure I can make promises for them. It's possible your sons won't have to fight and die against those we are hunting, it's possible your daughters will have a chance to learn to read. I don't know though, I don't have any good answers for you. Would you rather be dealing with the extremists by yourself? I really would like to know. I *think* we're trying to help, but it's so hard to tell sometimes. communication is so limited between our peoples, and most of that is done through violence unfortunately. Muslims with their suicide bombers and Americans with their big guns. I wish we could just talk more, but I don't think the extremists want us talking, and I don't think the powerful groups running America want us talking. But, here we are, trying to anyway, so thank you for that.
Muhammed -- Tell you what this isn't creating a nice image of you people here.
We're all people Muhammed. What were you saying at the beginning of your post, "if one retard acts foolishly in Times square why is the whole Pakistan blamed..?" If a soldier does something stupid or a powerful group in our government makes a decision I don't agree with, will you blame all Americans?
I'm glad we got to talk, I'm sorry it took an offensive image to start the conversation. But I stand by our right to draw that image without the threat of violence.
Goddess Bless
-Jennie
Emoux- Firstly, ... Secondly, when you get responded, the meaning of the very term somehow evaporates for you.
As one of the few "westerners" responding right now, I'll talk with you about your statements if that's acceptable.
I don't believe our belief in freedom of speech evaporates when Muslims respond. Those responses were allowed, and even welcomed. Responses that contain threats of violence , including ReeBz comment about "slapping faces" and the threats of violence against cartoonists are usually not well received though. We don't believe that freedom of speech extends to the threat of violence.
Emoux-- Thirdly, you people excel yourself beyond the very last level of cheapness and start attacking the author's. wow! you need to adopt some serious attitude change.
Reebz unfortunately made her slapping comment on a blog that caters to ex-military types and they are a *bit* hotheaded. :-D Most of the time mild threats of that nature would be ignored I think. The reply made to her about arm ripping off or something was as equally out of line as the Muslim threats of violence against the cartoonists.
EMOUX - SUGGESTIONS:
#1 Educate yourself PROPERLY about the nature of things
I could say the same to some of the commenters here, including Reebz, about the interpretation of America's free speech right. Just because we differ in our interpretations doesn't mean we aren't educated properly about the subject.
Emoux- #2 Learn to face facts with Sound Logical Reasoning instead of following Emotional Streams which i must say are often the result of lack of proper knowldge ...
Again, I would level this charge right back at contributors here, several of the arguments included emotional reasoning because the images offended.
Emoux -- LIVE AND LET LIVE!!
PS: Please learn to respect Humanity and its Values.
And what do you have to say about the threats of violence and death leveled at Americans who draw images of Mohammed? Or are only Muslims allowed to live as they like?
Live and let live, doesn't mean we have to live exactly like you and follow the exact same beliefs. Live and let live means ignoring that which offends you and going about your life.
Godess Bless
-Jennie
@Reebz,Mr.Obama is more than a non-Muslim.As a senator of state he gave a statement,"If America's attacked again we should attack Makkah,medina".
@SumDum Guy...u said,
"To many non-Muslims it appears as if your religion and lifestyle require that others live within the constraints of your religion. One example is if my wife and daughters were within a predominately Muslim community how would the fact they choose not to dress as conservatively be taken?"
Well well,to us Muslims it seems the other way.I never heard of a Muslim nation forcefully making non-Muslims keep beard or wear Islamic dresses..?No.But why do non-Muslim nations,have restrictions on Hijab..?
Why do your religion wants us to live it's way.?
I really need an answer of this,if you really got one..
Secondly,Pakistan had a pagan Chief justice of supreme court recently,and if you do follow Pakistani politics closely,you may know a chief justice has no lesser powers than a president.
As per,why a non-Muslim be a president,then I think you don't know the ideology behind creation of Pakistan.It was created on basis of religion.So not allowing a non-Muslim president is quite understandable.
Based on your 'tweak' of my handle I do not think you really want to have a civilized discussion but instead chose to demean and attack but I will address a few of your points. Please explain where I started to attack or degrade your religion and/or country? I asked honest questions seeking honest answers.
1) "What kind of treatmeant with Christians and Hindus are you talking about?"
Off the top of my head I can name two in the last 5 years. The only research I did was to get the month and year correct. With any sort of serious research I could easily take the below numbers up-to 50 if not more. May 2006: Lahore Temple demolished, March 2009: The Presbyterian church attack in Songo
2) Extreme acrobatics to twist my questions and opinons to emotionally charged statements about mistreating people.
Above point aside I stated, "To many non-Muslims it appears as if your religion and lifestyle require that others live within the constraints of your religion." and "Can you not agree that to an outsider it would seem that countries that become Muslim usually take the path of become more restricted and declaring Sharia law and usually not in the more liberal sense of Shari."
Again the questions were related to the discipline inherit with being a Muslim and how difficult it is to resolve that with demonstrating an attitude of acceptance and respect to non-Muslims. If you do not strive for those things with others lets get it in the open and be honest. This was the reason I read the Holy Qur'an, to get by the FUD and form my own opinions based on facts. Can you not see someone is coming here showing that they've spent the time attempting to understand your religion and country and offering honest feedback and yet you attack. Is the goal to edify yourself or to have an honest discussion?
You seem to have pigeon holed me into a box yet I'm working hard on not putting you into one, throwing PeaceOut does not satisfy 25:63 my friend.
Good day.
@Muhammad Hamza
Thank you for the respectful response and information.
"But why do non-Muslim nations,have restrictions on Hijab..?"
Not sure which nations you are speaking of but I see plenty in our community. It is the same as with the fundamental Christian women that wear head coverings. Ignorant people may stare but I have not seen where they were not allowed in our community.
"Why do your religion wants us to live it's way.?"
I never said I had a religion did I?
Also, just because some things are not enforced by the government in your country does not mean they are not culturally supported which is really at the heart of some of my initial questions.
Thanks for everyone who took part in the discussion. phew, it kept me busy for such a long time.Reading everyone's comment fully, and then to accept them and what is worse, replying everyone individually has really made me ill of this job!
This post contained no "hate speech", but still it attracted so many comments.Any hows, m going to END the discussion here.I have accepted all the comments from everyone.Each one showing WHo is WHO!
========
SumDumguy:
I would love to have a discussion with you here as you are the only one whom i found somewhat "Mannered" except "Connie".But you see, I've got soo many comments, and like every time now too i have to close the discussion myself..
=====
conclusion:
There are lots of differences between Eastern and western Culture, between Islam and all the other religions.Islam and the Muslims are not going to ask anyone to not to drink, or to not to eat pork,or anything else. Yu are free to do whatever you want in your country and even in Pakistan too(under limits).But is it necessary to humiliate others just for the sake of freedom of speech?It can hurt anyone's emotions if the nasty images are drawn. as Jennie said that if i draw to demean her then it would hurt her,Then why not to respect others and spread love in the world?
Extremists are everywhere, in every religion, may be in Islam too.But we all know that those extremists are not the right followers, so why to start wars and disturb the peace of the world just cause of those "Extremists"?-Do not be the part of their mission please!
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YOU must remember, that first step was taken by the west by making those characters for south park which enraged all the Muslims.If you have had respected the others' love to their religion, this all mess had not been happened.
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Jennie, i did not like you to say that everything which is bad in America, is cause of your army and your people over which you have no control, well similarly you must not be outraged cause we too have no control over those extremists who are threatening you, but you may have control over those hot-headed guys who are threatening others to rip off their arms.I can see how aggressive and violent you people are, that in the return of an example of "Slapping ones face" they are threatening the person.
You people should really polish yourselves, your manners and your hot-headed people.
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NO MORE DISCUSSIONS ON THE TOPIC.
OMG!!!!! whT the hell is going on here! i cnt gv it a full read ever! REeBZ u have done a gr8 job!
as u hv ended the dscussion m not going to add anymore points!
but woww! u did it so weLL!! a blog gaining so many comments! woww thTs gr8, thts onlY U!
http://myfreedompath.blogspot.com/
Connie this is Jennies site, for more, you can click on her name and everything will be done :)
Something for Jennie, which i really want to tell her.I will accept in return what she says:
//So, there already exist nude sketches of me, and some of them are really bad, and do make me look like pig face... :-D :-D but I digress. Yes, to answer your question, I would be hurt if you drew mean pictures of me. But I would respect your right to do it. //
Listen Jennie, its you who can walk proudly with no clothing, its you who help others making nude pictures of yours-so you shall not feel sick if someones does so, but at the same time as you said you will mind,if the images are drawn solely to insult and demean you.Then do think about Muslims with a cool head.
Modesty is one of the important part of Islam, whether it be male or female we love being modest.Therefore, if anyone draws nude sketches of ours,it will be hard to bear for us,specially when it is done with our most respected religious personalities.
Go and draw such humiliating pictures of Obama,bush and your popes, we shall not ask you to avoid it, as you have all your rights of freedom of speech in your country and about your own country and related stuff.
Interesting conversation!
Well I think it's worth mentioning that drawing OFFENSIVE stuff to INSULT AND HUMILIATE people of other religion is NOT INCLUDED in Freedom of Speech.
This is synonymous to creating and promoting religious differences.
Freedom of Speech has always been among the Americans - they write books, make websites etc against Islam, but drawing nude, unethical and rude stuff, and encouraging others to do so is taking is a bit too far.
You said you're not supposed to FOLLOW our religion and want your freedom. We did not COMPEL you to FOLLOW our religion. But you know that few religious values ought to be RESPECTED.
This was all a PROPAGANDA carried in the name of Freedom of Speech. It only aimed to insult and disgrace muslims. It was obvious from the statements of all those who took part in and supported the competition.
@Jennie,Sumdum Guy amd others,I would have liked to discuss further on this topic if the owner of this blog wasn't tired..:)
@Sumdum guy,Okay you don't have an religion but why do you want others be your way..?
Isn't their right to what so ever..?
I can't really never forget Marwa,my sister who was brutally killed before a judge in a French court.What did the security did there..?
Shoot her husband instead of the retard person who was stabbing her with a knife..@!
And you talked about the condition of minorities in Pakistan.So I must tell you Muslim,the second largest religion in USA,isn't having a great time living there.Every day bring humiliation to their doorstep.
@Jennie,I must first recommend you to do some research on Pakistan's situation before making views.
First of all what is terrorism and who are the terrorists.
When USA attacked Afghanistan,thousands of terrorists secretly entered Pakistan,as Afghanistan shares a huge boundary with Pakistan.
The terrorist remained peaceful in Pakistan,until on USA's request Pakistan' armed forces took action against them.Fro that day,terrorists have started attacks in my beloved nation.
So don't make it look as if Terroism was in Pakistan before USA came into Asia..
No.We are fight against Taliban for you.Taliban weren't our enemies until we started killing them for you.So save your nation.So protect you.
You talked about our girls getting education..
I'm studying in a Co-education school.Which is affiliated with Cambridge university,UK.
So there isn't much difference between girl's education in Pakistan and USA.But I must say it's better here in Pakistan.At least girls don't get raped by their class mates.
So don't think that Pakistan is some faraway village with ignorant people and USA is it's Saviour.
Lastly,I don't understand by giving these justification how do you get the right to abuse Islam..?
Where does abusing Islam get in the picture here..?
And if you really are a true supporter of "Freedom of speech",Then explain the ban on Hijab.?
Please I do need justifications.Follow up at my blog.
@ScumDumGuy
Corrections for you my dear friend:)
SDG: Please explain where I started to attack or degrade your religion and/or country? I asked honest questions seeking honest answers.
Please explain where did i said THAT?:)
i commented on the GENERAL SCENARIO taking place all over the world answering your
'honest' questions honestly:)
#2 those were accidents which can happen anywhere and were seriously looked into. and btw they are nowhere near the figures which are hit all over the world and not to mention the fact that Muslims are the ones under target in 80% cases.
and if my general knowldge sucks that much i assume it was your country who attacked 3 nations:)
So friend dont 'tweak' my comments as you put in:)
SDG: "To many non-Muslims it appears as if your religion and lifestyle require that others live within the constraints of your religion."
Sorry you'll find yourself wrong there. Pakistan OR Islam has NEVER 'constrained' any outsider to adopt its customs and this 'appearing' to you is merely an 'appearing'
FREE WILL is the nature of the subject on both sides:)
SDG: This was the reason I read the Holy Qur'an, to get by the FUD and form my own opinions based on facts. Can you not see someone is coming here showing that they've spent the time attempting to understand your religion and country and offering honest feedback and yet you attack. Is the goal to edify yourself or to have an honest discussion?
Attack? honestly dude what are you thinking?
can YOU not see that WE TOO are responding you honestly and giving honest answers?
oh and btw maybe you still need to do a more indepth study of the concerned subjects you mentioned above because even from your short posts i can tell that once again you have misinterpreted stuff:)
SDG: Extreme acrobatics to twist my questions and opinons to emotionally charged statements about mistreating people.
lol you need to reconsider that. dont you think you are the one who is doing that?:)
if you've good reading skills then you'll observe that the responce posted was a general one.
we dont have time to waste on such ingenious skills:)
SDG: You seem to have pigeon holed me into a box yet I'm working hard on not putting you into one,
Once again you seriously need to change your behaviour towards Perception and Perspective of things:)
Once again you Misinterpret:)
SDG: throwing PeaceOut does not satisfy 25:63 my friend.
nor does insulting the term 'Freedom of Speech'
my friend:)
@Jenny
i really dont have time to answer you and anyways Reebz has done a good job of it already.
@Reebz
i think u've done a great job!
i respect your decision of no more comments and would not post any after this and anyways this whole thing is going nowhere.
the entire discussion which took place here is clearly understandable for people who have Sense.
well thats it!
Have a Nice Time Everybody and let the World Breathe in Peace.
Woah.. dt ws a Hell lot of a disCussiOn (it took me a whOle hOur to REad till Hamza, dn my eyes REjected to rEad mOre :/ )..
Firstly, want to apPrecite Ur patiEnce level, How u replied to awl so calmly!! It ws a dOuble treat, 1st Ur bLog, dn a so gr8 disCussIon nd ur replies were Commendable!! So well doNe nd Keep it Up!! Proud of U mOre :) ♥
--Rain
Thanks to Rain ans Smarty. I wish you people haD joined a bit earlier, you really missed a great conversation :)
Thanks to all,To Hamza, To anonymous,To Nida Fatima, To Connie and to sumdumguy and Jennie as well!
These discussions will start going places if Muslims start calling these offensive cartoons and other forms of insult against their Prophet as "libelous" and "defamatory" rather than blasphemous, sacrilegious and so on.
Freedom of speech does not cover libel and defamation: there is a line you must not cross when speaking to or about a citizen. If you cross that line even in your words and pictures, that citizen can sue you. In some cases the punishment could be severe (especially if the citizen could prove financial loss or severe mental stress resulting from your insult).
Muslims are speaking about this, with the only difference that they want the same protection offered to Prophet Muhammad which is offered to an ordinary citizen under the American and Western laws.
Freedom of speech and expression are irrelevant here, and so is the First Amendment. It's libel and defamation, folks, and that is not protected by the First Amendment :).
Then why majority of Pakistanis is going for proxy sites to access FB ?
tanzeel
On what basis you are saying "Majority" of the Pakistan?Have you conducted any survey or research?
I think the reality is the "Other way" round.Most of the people are planning to quit FB permanently, as all the people are worried about Fb privacy settings.
may 31 is "Quit facebook day" http://www.quitfacebookday.com/ and uptil now 13410 people have committed to quit it.
I can understand, here in Pakistan many people want to get their data back from face book, so may be they are going for proxies etc.
People are joining other social networking sites like Myspace,orkut Ning etc,ofcourse FB is not the only one!
First of all everyone's English on here is terrible. Second, I can understand how offensive it must be for people to abuse another persons religion, I get that. But why so extreme about it? We (Americans) may have a loose moral and way of living but we prosper and have a great country regardless of how bad our government tries to screw up our economy. Most of us live decent normal lives working and LOVING our families. Just because there are people out there that hate and make stupid cartoons because they have a bad sense of humor doesn't mean that Facebook is to blame nor all of the people on it or all of America for that fact. I didn't even realize, until I stumbled across this page, that Pakistan had such a problem with Facebook and that they were protesting it. No one over here sees that so it's pointless that it's being protested anyways. If it's unanimous that Pakistan shouldn't use Facebook then say it's banned and be done with it. So much anger involved with religion.. It's good to stand up for what you believe in. But to slander, threat, kill, and die because someone made a cartoon, gesture, or comment is something I can not fathom.
Daniel:
Ofcourse, English is not the mother tongue of the people commented here except Connie. So bear with the language problems.
Secondly life there in America is totally different than life here in Pakistan.You live in a welfare state, so small things like government screwing up your economy doesn't matter at all, when your government is taking you as a responsibility and provide stipends for orphans,unemployed and widows, you have no pains and no sufferings like Pakistani people.
Thirdly, why do you see killings only in Pakistan? Religion is something of very high regard. Being emotional for religion is natural. Why did you Americans protested when the book "DA vinci" was launched by Dan Brown?
If someone makes a dirty cartoon of you, you will ofcourse flareup with anger. So, why cant you fathom this attitude when cartoons are made of Holy personalities?
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